When Brian Moran was growing up, his father gave him a piece of advice that stuck with him: learn to sell. After playing collegiate baseball, studying marketing, and running two online businesses, Brian launched SamCart, an e-commerce shopping cart software that helps small businesses get their online stores up and running. SamCart made quite the splash — and proved Brian truly knew how to sell — when it turned into a $1 million dollar business overnight.
In this episode, Brian chimes in on why friendships are invaluable when growing a business, why badly performing ads are nobody’s fault but your own, and how he’s designed a whole new kind of funnel. Instead of pushing his traffic to a demo, Brian has a genius strategy where’s he’s effectively able to recover his marketing spend immediately, create a high-intent audience, and warm his audience through content.
In This Episode You’ll Learn:
0:01 — Introduction
1:32 — Where Brian Moran’s drive comes from, “the student of marketing”
3:08 — The origin story of SamCart
5:00 — Getting the first customers for a business
6:16 —”We basically created a million dollar business overnight”
7:11 — The growth channels that have worked; the value of affiliates
10:05 — Paid traffic channels Brian turns to, and why bad ads are only your fault
12:14 — Inside the Funnel, SamCart’s ingenious demo funnel
21:52 — Why aren’t more startups doing this?
25:30 — The Salty Six, rapid-fire questions to know Brian better
DR: Welcome back, Growth Nation, to Scale or Die. I’m your host Dave Rogenmoser and this is the show where we uncover proven growth strategies from CEOs and growth experts behind some of the world’s fastest growing startups. Today we’ve got a special guest, and a good friend, Brian Moran. We’re gonna talk a lot about marketing funnels and paid traffic, which I know a lot of startups get stuck on how do you actually make those channels profitable. Brian’s the founder and CEO of SamCart, an online shopping cart optimized to increase sales and conversions primarily for information products and online courses. Brian, welcome to the show. Good to have you here man.
BM: Thanks for having me. Good to be here.
DR: Yeah this is good, so, of all the SaaS founders I know and marketers I think you have a different mindset than almost everybody.
BM: I hope that’s a good thing.
DR: You are obsessed with marketing, with growth, with paid traffic, with what channels are working. Every time we hop on the phone, it’s like, what’s working in your funnels, I’m studying this other company, and you’re just kind of like a student of marketing, I feel like. Where does that come from?
BM: Where does that come from? That’s a good question. I mean I guess it’s kinda the first skill that I learned in business when I, I went to school for marketing, so I guess it kinda comes there. Grew up watching my dad was, he was a salesman by trade. He was in big network marketing companies back in you know, the late ’80s, so I kinda watched the entrepreneur in my dad growing up.
DR: Which companies was he?
BM: He was in Amway for a while, and it did pretty well. Never enough to, you know, quit his job, but made a lot of extra money that we got to benefit from as kids, going on cool vacations and stuff. So I got to see him like chase that dream. And you know, ever since I was little like, the one thing I remember him as far as advice was if you want to have an unlimited income someday learn how to sell. Those are the guys that, you know, obviously there’s a lot of ways to make a lot of money and a lot of ways to build businesses, but if you want to develop a pretty lucrative skill, that’s the one. I went to school for marketing and then when I got out of school and tried to figure out how to get started online that was kind of the online marketing world is where I stumbled into, and then those are the skills I developed. So, that’s just I guess by chance a little bit.
DR: You started off by selling courses?
DR: And trainings, right?
BM: Yeah, our first site was thetrainedbaseball.com because I was a baseball player all through college, was an All American, so I figured let’s take the credibility of how good I was in college and create courses around it. Had to figure out how to sell them somehow or I wasn’t going to make any money.
DR: Love it.
BM: Yeah, so I had to develop that skill.
DR: Love it, love it. Alright, so let’s dive in and talk about scaling up and growth. You started SamCart what, four years ago?
BM: Yeah, it’s 2018, so yeah, it was early 2014 was our first like big coming out party where we let the world know about it.
DR: Okay, so you launch this thing, and just tell us about SamCart. What is it, why did you launch it, what did that, you know, early days look like?
BM: Yeah, so back in like 2012, 2013 we had our information marketing business that was doing a couple million dollars a year and one of the biggest frustrations we had was with our shopping cart.
We knew we were losing money because our checkout pages were leaking sales because they weren’t they either they weren’t mobile friendly or we couldn’t split test them, or we couldn’t maximize the average cart value, customer lifetime value, because we couldn’t offer multiple products at the point of sale. We couldn’t do things like one-click upsells.
Our stats and analytics were all screwed up. So we knew there was a big problem, and I wanted to get into the software world because I felt like I had sort of figured out this information marketing side.
And I kinda wanted a new challenge so we found a couple guys to help us build this tool and that was the tool that we ended up building, using for ourselves for a while, and then thought, you know, look I’m pretty sure everybody else needs this damn thing, so we’d might as well go try to let the world know about it.
DR: So it’s kinda the classic origin story. You just built it for yourself so you could do more of what you wanted.
BM: Yeah, I mean obviously I’m not gonna sit here and pretend that I never intended to have it be a product, but I’m gonna use it for myself first, prove that it actually works.
But yeah, the end goal was always that hopefully this thing if it works and if we are right in our assumptions that if we fix problems a, b, and c, that our revenue will double, triple, quadruple because of it. Let’s prove that concept first and then turn it into hopefully a product that everybody else wants.
BM: Goodness it’s so far we’ve been right.
DR: It’s worked, sweet. So how did you get those customers in the early days? What did that look like?
BM: We cheated. And we cheated because we had the business that we had built before this was in information marketing, you know, coaching, training business in the marketing space.
We had a site called Get Ten Thousand Fans where I basically taught people how we used Facebook marketing to build the previous business before that which was the baseball side. So we had this huge audience. I think we had 400,000 fans on Facebook. And the email list of a couple hundred thousand people. So we didn’t have to do much.
We didn’t have to do a whole lot of content marketing. We didn’t have to do any paid ads, we didn’t have to call up promotional partners or raise money or any of that stuff.
We had this group of people that we could just email about things. And they knew me, they liked me, they trusted me, because I was kind of the expert that they had, I was the reason that they came to the business in the first place. So we just, you know, one day when we through we were ready wrote up a couple emails and said hey, we got something cool we want you to know about. Been working on it for, at that point eight, nine, 10 months, and put together kind of a mini product launch and the rest is history.
DR: And sign-ups were strong right away.
BM: Oh yeah, I mean we basically created a million dollar business overnight.
DR: That’s amazing.
BM: So yeah, it was a fun week.
DR: That’s awesome.
BM: We’ve had a couple of those since then, you’d say overnight success stories aren’t real, that sort of was one. One day we had a business, one day we didn’t have a business, the next day we did.Obviously it's not overnight success, we did a lot of work to build that previous business, to build that list, but that's how fast these things can happen, I mean if you have an audience and a good offer, and you can make a lot of things… Click To Tweet
DR: Okay, so that was kind of your early growth channel was we’re gonna just email out to the existing audience. Not really replicable for a lot of people. But, what does it look like as you’ve grown to, how many team members do you have now?
BM: Like 15.
DR: And what 5,000ish customers?
DR: So what has it looked like, what growth channels have worked, what growth channels have you tried that haven’t worked, like what’s it been like for the last four years?
BM: Yeah, I mean we pulled a lot out of our previous email list and we continue to build that list. We have a lot of fantastic affiliate partners. In our space, you know, if you’re selling tools like Proof in the marketing world there are a lot of big bloggers, speakers, authors, coaches, thought leaders that have big audiences.
You know, you look at someone like Tim Ferriss. If you could somehow convince someone like a Tim Ferriss to promote your thing, you can do a lot of damage in a short period of time. But yeah, so we had a lot of great partners, relationships that we had built over the years.
You know, the partners that worked the best for us and one of the lessons for anybody listening to this that doesn’t have those partners is you don’t just go walk up to someone you meet the first time and then quickly ask them to promote your stuff. Like, again, it was the benefit of I’d been in that world for at this point it’s 2015, and five years.
So been to dozens of events. Spoken on a couple stages. Worked with a couple people in the past had a lot of friendships. I think just, you know, cool buddies, guys and girls across the board, bloggers, speakers, coaches, and you know, they were willing to get behind us because they knew we had a great product. A lot of them used the product which made it even easier to get them to share it out there.
So yeah, but you know, I didn’t just go out and hit the pavement and make a whole bunch of new fake friendships and ask people to promote us like that. That’s how, you know, you get yourself in a lot of trouble.
DR: And how were you partnering up? So once you had a partner, would you do a joint webinar with them, would you just say-
BM: We’d kinda do whatever they want to do. We had a couple webinars that worked really well, so a lot of our stuff we’d yeah, do a big joint webinar. SamCart would do, we usually once a year do a big re-release of a whole bunch of new features.
So we’ll line up partners that want to share that out. You just gotta give them a reason to. So yeah, it was kind of a little bit different for every player we had.
Have there been other significant channels besides that? You guys do a lot and we’re gonna talk about some of your funnels because you guys do a lot of paid traffic, or have done a lot of paid traffic.
BM: Yeah, paid traffic is my bread and butter. I’m not a big content marketing guy just because I, you know, I don’t follow through with that kind of stuff, and you’re not gonna find me blogging religiously every, you know, Tuesday Thursday.
DR: Five years straight whether anyone’s reading it or not.
BM: Yeah, I have a podcast and I haven’t published to it in six months just because I’ve been busy. Like I probably shouldn’t do that if I wanted the podcast to be a main channel, but that’s just not you know, that’s not how my brain works.
I’m more, you know, math and science and the process of running ads and trying to make that work just fits my brain type better. So that’s always been our bread and butter is we do whatever we can to-
DR: Okay, is that AdWords, Facebook, what do you do?
BM: It’s a little bit of everything. Facebook is obviously a big one. We’ve been getting into AdWords a lot lately, in the past like six or eight months we’re getting to YouTube now. I mean, there’s dozens of them. So, kinda get whatever we can get our hands on.
Whatever works, you know, wherever the math equation works. Wherever we can put a dollar in and not get burned, you know, we try to maximize that channel.
DR: Gotcha. And I think you’ve got kind of an interesting take because you guys haven’t raised any funding,
DR: So how are you funding such aggressive growth? How are you pulling this off if you don’t have this war chest of cash available. Like you can’t spend a thousand dollars on a customer only to make it back over the next three years.
You’ve got to get it back pretty quick. So how do you think about that, how do you fund that?
BM: You fund it by being damn good at selling, that’s how. There is no way around it. I mean we hear from people all the time that will try a paid traffic channel. They try YouTube ads or Facebook ads or AdWords and they blame said platform on their failure.
DR: Facebook ads don’t work.
BM: As if just all paid media doesn’t work.
As if there wasn’t a flaw on your end. Like they sent you the traffic, they did their job.Facebook does not fail, Google does not fail, YouTube does not fail to send anyone traffic who wants it. They do their job. If it doesn't work, it is 110% the fault of the business owner. Click To Tweet
You either targeted the wrong people or your message stinks. So you’ve just gotta be religious about trying to figure out what is that message that will work.
What is the funnel that will work. Is it, do I lead with a cheap product, do I lead with a freebie lead magnet type thing to build a list of leads that I then sell over time? There’s a thousand ways to do it, and I promise you if you test all thousand of them you’ll find something that works, and if you get it to work, you essentially have an unlimited ad budget, you can go scale to the moon.
So that’s what I’m obsessed with 24/7 is trying to figure out what ad can work for whatever the business is, whether it’s a ballet studio or software startup like SamCart or somebody else we’re helping out or whoever.
Inside the Funnel
DR: So let’s talk about this here. So we’ve got a segment of the show called Inside The Funnel.
DR: And this is where we actually dive into what does one of your funnels look like, talk us through, you know, the paid traffic side of things and how does this whole thing work and just for people who are listening.
Like you run a normal SaaS model business, they pay a monthly fee for your product. This is not, you know, an information marketing business, this is a SaaS business that you have added a few extra elements on that any business could do to make it grow that much faster.
And I feel like a lot of startups that I talk to and growth people, they’re driving traffic usually to the home page.
And you know, it’s an optimized home page but they’re saying we don’t know how to get paid traffic to work, we can’t figure this thing out. You built this and it’s working really well, right?
DR: So let’s talk through, we call it a Free + Shipping funnel.
DR: Just talk us through, and you know, people are going to be listening to this as well and aren’t going to be able to see it on the screen here but I’ll pull up this first page. I actually went through and bought all the products today which was fun.
Got my credit card out and spent about what, $250 I think. I’m going through the whole funnel even before I got to the free trial sign up.
DR: But yeah, just talk us through how this thing works, what your thoughts are, what you’ve been seeing specifically.
BM: Yeah, so this, so the idea here is that I thought alright, well you know what I should do, I should write a book that I think a segment of my target market will, that they need.
So people that use SamCart, there’s a lot of, there’s a big chunk of beginners that want to launch a business online but they are, they’re utterly just confused. They’re bombarded day after day by new business models, whether it’s a new MLM that pops up, or a, you know, drop shipping, or start an e-commerce store or maybe you should start an information product business, or maybe you should be a coach or consultant. I mean, it’s never ending.
You get in this world and the whole thing is just it’s a disaster if you’re a newbie because there is too much information going on. So I thought, you know, what I’m going to do, I’m gonna try out this idea where I’m gonna write a book. I ended up calling it the Going Pro Manifesto. It is a tiny little book.
Took me about four days to write. It’s a booklet, it’s not a real published book, it’s self-published, I think it’s about 30 pages, and had a designer on Dribbble design it, give me a cover. We used a company called Vervante that prints these types of booklets out. And connected it with SamCart, we well it with SamCart. This is the sales page that actually sells the book which you can see it GoingProManifesto.com. Is just a simple two column page where I have the sales pitch on the right that at the top you can see it just says get the book that reveals this three-step process that eliminates overwhelm and creates time freedom as you do less, not more.
So this, what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to call out overwhelmed, struggling entrepreneurs who don’t know where to start because there are a thousand ideas. And my pitch here is, I wrote this book, I’m a successful entrepreneur, I’m where you’re trying to be, here’s how I got here.
I did it by simplifying, by ignoring 95% of the garbage that is out there that are just giving you a new shiny object every week, and I distilled it all into this book called The Going Pro Manifesto, and I’m gonna give you this book for free if you just pay the shipping and handling.
So the shipping and handling I think is $7.95 if you’re in the US, it’s different depending on where you are all over the world. I could have charged, there’s no magic here, like there’s probably a hundred ways to make this work.
This book could have been five bucks with free shipping. It could have been 10 bucks with free shipping. We decided I wanted the book which is the sexiest part of this offer, it’s what people want, I wanted that to be free. And I could get away with saying that by saying it’s free as long as you cover the shipping and handling. So I make $7.95 on the book and you can see on the right-hand column right as they’re entering in their credit card, they an tick a little box where they can also add this other bundle to their order.
It’s just like you go to Amazon. Amazon upsells the crap out of you by saying look if you’re buying this trampoline, most people that bought this bought a helmet, because for whatever reason. There’s a thousand other products that they want to get you to add to your cart before you check out. So that’s what I’m doing here. I want them to add as many things to their cart before they buy so that my customer’s worth five times what it normally would have been. If I didn’t do any of this, all of my customers would be worth $7.95.
DR: So how often, how many people actually add that little order bump there and get the extra $47 bonus?
BM: That’s one of the highest converting ones that I’ve actually ever done, it’s around 40%. And I think it’s because it’s really congruent. It’s called, the book is called The Going Pro Manifesto, this extra order bump is called The Going Pro Starter Kit I think, where they can get, if they add this to their cart they get three new resources. They get the second book that I wrote called The Going Pro Gameplan which is, the Manifesto is sort of this strategic side of it, the Gameplan is the tactical side of it.
So they’re, it’s a really good match.
DR: And do you send people to this page with Facebook ads?
BM: Yep, direct from Facebook ads.
DR: So Facebook ads, they come here. If 100 people hit this first page, do you know how many actually end up buying?
BM: I think it converts to like 8.5%.
DR: 8.5% and then 40% of those people buy that thing.
DR: That’s pretty good up front. I mean you’ve already made some good money back.
BM: Yeah, and we’re not even done.
DR: Yeah, and you’re chipping away.
BM: Because you obviously you buy, after you buy this and you saw it, after they fill out this page and they hopefully 40% of them add that order bump so now they’re paying $7.95 for the first item, the second item is $47 additional with $7.00 more in shipping costs. So we’re up to $54 or something like that.
Then, as soon as they actually place the order, they get presented with back to back one time offers. And the first offer is a it’s our action plan which we call is our Growth, Conversion, and Audience Action Plan. So the three things that this person’s gonna want after they read this book, they’re gonna want to know how do I build an audience, how do I jump start my conversion, and then how do I scale this business?
So those are huge topics. So we distilled them down into little mini-courses. We have huge courses that are a thousand, two thousand dollars on these subjects because they’re such massive topics, but I distilled them down into like the cliff notes version. And I give them the ability to buy those on this first, we call it a one-time upsell page. I say, hey, thanks so much for buying the book, if you’re someone who is a lot like the other people who have bought this book, you probably are struggling with a, b, and c, and I just so happen to have three mini-courses that I’m willing to give you right now at a huge discount.
We normally sell these for a lot of money and we give them the ability to get them for just an additional hundred bucks. And then that’s the same, we make a very similar offer on that next page. So now, if you look at it, most people, you know, if you’re a startup, most startups they just have one offer. It’s a free trial. They might have a couple different plans, but they run ads to a free trial page and they wonder why ads don’t work. Because you make no money for however long that free trial is, and then you’re only making money from one product. This, already, they haven’t even officially checked out yet. They have the ability to buy the book, to buy the starter pack, and to buy two additional products if they want them. And you can see if you go through and buy everything.
DR: Yeah, so on step two if they buy that upsell, or if they decline it they still go to step three which is Traffic Tactics which is another $97 plan. How often do people actually buy these two. Like in step two, they’ve already paid.
BM: These two I think convert anywhere from like 13 to 16% if I’m remembering right. It’s somewhere around there.
DR: Yeah, of people that go through there.
DR: And if they click yes, give me more traffic. Or if you know, they click yes I want this it just automatically charges their card?
DR: And then they go to the next one and they can click yes I want this and it automatically charges their card again?
DR: They don’t have to fill anything out again?
DR: Or they can say no thanks, I don’t need more traffic.
BM: Yeah, they can decline these, obviously.
DR: They can just keep going through the funnel, and then it spits them out at webinar registration.
DR: So you know, what’s the thought on after they’ve already purchased a few items have you made your money back yet at that point?
DR: Or are you just getting close?
BM: Yeah, we’ve made our money back.
DR: So you’ve already paid for all the Facebook traffic
DR: Ten seconds, not a minute after you bought it.
DR: And now you’re just trying to get free trials on the back.
BM: If we took off either of the two upsells we would, we would break even. Our ads would be paid for. And again, that’s a huge accomplishment. I mean, that means I can essentially go buy as much traffic as I want. Yes, I’m not directly selling my software yet, but I’m building an enormous audience of people who know, like and trust me, who like our content, and who I am preparing to get them ready for Sam, to use SamCart. SamCart’s not valuable unless you have a business.
So I’m trying to get them over that hump and then I will offer them SamCart in the first couple follow-up emails and in this webinar that we give them is a free 90-minute presentation they can jump on. So we do everything from this page forward the goal is get them onto SamCart. Software. As fast as we can.
DR: To start a free trial or buy a year-long annual plan up front.
BM: Yeah, whatever they want to do. Whether it’s free trial or pay for an annual.
DR: This is brilliant, man. So why do you think most startups aren’t doing something like this? Why is everybody just going get my free trial get my free trial, get my free trial?
BM: I think it’s what they’re taught to do. They don’t know about this. Or they look at something like this and they think that it degrades my brand, it’s, you know, it’s not a tactic I want to use I don’t even care if it works. You know, there’s a lot of people that use these tactics and they do damage to their brand. And they take something that should be a well-respected startup and they kind of bring it down.
DR: But everything can be sold on brand.
DR: It’s not like yours is off brand at all.
DR: It can be designed well, and on brand and helpful. And it’s so valuable, you know, I think too the customers that are actually going through this that by the time they get to start my free trial like they’re warmed up. They’ve met you, they know the brand, they like you, they trust you. They’re more confident in themselves to get started.
DR: Do you think this kind of marketing funnel would work for people that are selling more B to B type products? I mean obviously yours is B to B but you’re kinda trying to make it more consumers shifting into business. Do you think it would work for most kinds of businesses?
BM: A hundred percent. I don’t see why it wouldn’t. And whether it’s this exact funnel or just something that is accomplishing the same thing of putting something inexpensive whether it’s getting, you know, just getting the email, getting a lead or selling an inexpensive front end product with the goal of do what I need to do to pay for the advertising so I can reach as many people as I want. And make the goal of that funnel, that campaign, promotion, whatever you want to call it, to build a list of qualified prospects that are now actually customers of yours. They might not be customers of the end goal product, what you’re trying to sell them yet, but you can market to them free for the rest of time.
DR: I thought of it as just building up a huge wave that over time like, these people may just buy the booklet and in six years be ready for SamCart.
BM: Yeah, and we’ve been running this one since I think it’s February or March when we went live with it, it might be April, but it’s been months now, and we see it now stacking. So we see it looks like our ads are doing better these days, but the ads aren’t doing any better, it’s just the people, the 2,000 copies of this book that we sold in March, those 2,000 people are now even more warmed up because we’ve been sending them good content for the last couple months. We’ve been sending them the podcast that I do. They’re getting awesome content. So I’m continuing to build the relationship with them and at some point they will buy SamCart.
DR: So you do a lot of email follow up and just keeping them engaged after they buy?
BM: Yep, I mean yeah, we’re always creating content, we’re always updating Sam, I mean there’s email notifications going out about something in our business two or three times a week. They might not get all of them, but we make sure they get the ones that they need. They might not need a feature announcement you know, for SamCart if it’s an advanced feature that a beginner’s not going to care about or understand, but if I do a new podcast episode that I think is valuable for them, we’ll let them know about it. So we continue to keep them warm and to just deliver value to them for free because we want to build up the goodwill tank that we have with them so that when they’re ready they think SamCart is the tool I wanna use.
DR: I’m all hot and bothered right now thinking about this. Yeah, this is awesome man, we wanna go apply something like this here with Proof. I love it. Alright man, well the last segment of the show is called The Salty Six. This is my favorite part of it. Basically, it’s six rapid-fire questions for us to get to know you a little bit better.
DR: You ready?
DR: You feel good?
BM: We’ll see at the end of this if I feel good.
DR: You don’t know what’s coming. I didn’t tell you anything about these.
DR: Alright man, well here they are. So number one, what do you do for fun?
BM: What do I do for fun? Well, I used to golf, play basketball, play softball till I tore my ACL on a skiing trip seven months ago, so now I watch people play softball, basketball, golf, and I play with my two kids. I have a four-year-old daughter and a one and a half-year-old son, so that’s about all the fun I can handle these days.
DR: Alright. What’s the best business conference you’ve gone to?
BM: Hmmm, Traffic and Conversion Summit back in the day was an absolute game changer. It’s a little bit different these days, it’s just kind of a huge convention. I like conferences that the CEO Founder is up on stage for hours and hours talking about what he’s doing behind the scenes. If there’s events out there that that’s kind of what the, you know, what it is, then I will usually show up to those.
DR: Love it. What podcasts do you listen to? If any.
BM: Podcasts, lately I haven’t been listening to a ton. I’ll go in and out of GaryVee’s every once in awhile just because the dude cracks me up, but yeah, I haven’t been listening to podcasts a lot lately.
DR: Alright, question number four. What book are you reading right now, what’s on your nightstand?
BM: Jocko Willink’s Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, I think it is. Big black cover book, guy’s an ex Navy Seal.
DR: Is it intense?
BM: Oh, he’s an absolute bad-ass, this guy is crazy.
DR: Love it.
BM: Yeah, it’s awesome.
DR: Alright, Michael Jordan or LeBron?
BM: Mmm, I mean LeBron would dominate him one on one I don’t care what anybody says.
DR: Alright, he’s going LeBron.
Alright, and then the last, number six is what one person would you like to invite to a dinner party right now, dead or alive. To make an interesting night.
BM: Oh man. I can make a lot of people mad with who I say, so maybe I’ll avoid that one. One person to a dinner party.
DR: Gonna say that person, who are you thinking?
BM: I was saying Donald Trump and I won’t tell you because it’s that I support him or don’t, I’ll just, I think regardless of whether you support the guy or not, just to be able to talk to someone who’s in the position that he is in.
DR: That would be fascinating.
BM: I mean, the dude is absolutely crazy, and I’d love to just see what he’s like in real life.
BM: Because everybody sees him on tv whether you like him, love him, hate him. That would have to be one of the most memorable dinners ever.
DR: Yep, no, no, no, that’s cool. Well there you have it folks, Brian, thanks so much for being on, man.
BM: Thanks for having me.
DR: This has been great. If people want to find out more about what your working on, where can they find you?
DR: Alright, well there you have it folks. Thanks for watching Scale or Die, we’ll see you in the next episode.